[Music]
Hello and welcome to Full Disclosure. I
am still on holiday. So, another visit
to the vault um from the extraordinary
archive of interviews that we've built
up over the years. Sometimes, I hope
this doesn't sound self- congratulatory.
Sometimes I look at the the list did it
on the show the other day actually and I
sort of think blimey that's a remarkable
roster and we continue to to to knock it
out week after week after week. I was
really looking forward to this one and
oddly the more you look forward to it
the the more conscious you are of the
possibility of being disappointed.
Happily I was not. Um we're heading into
the archive to revisit a conversation
with the legendary Brian Cox. I know
what you're thinking. Which one? because
I've done them both on full disclosure.
But this is not the astrophysicist um
although that episode is in the archive.
This is the actor who somewhat later in
life achieved a new level of fame when
he starred as Logan Roy in succession.
But I mean he had a several lifetimes
worth of stories and experiences to
share long before he moved into that
sort of megastar status. and we talk
about as much of it as we possibly can
cram into an hour during the course of
this um powerful often quite moving
conversation. He has a clarity and and a
compassion that shine through and his
childhood in postwar Dundee was was
pretty bleak. I love the redemptive
nature of theater. The way that
performing managed to free him, if you
like, or rescue him from um a path that
would otherwise have been pretty
unenviable, shapes his politics, shaped
his performances, and has shaped his
perspective on success. If you did
listen to it the first time round, I
guarantee there'd be bits that you
missed. And if you didn't, then well,
prepare to be gripped by a man who has
lived a remarkable life and relates it
quite brilliantly.
Hello and welcome to Full Disclosure, a
podcast project designed entirely to let
me spend more time than I'd ever get on
the radio with people that I find
fascinating. And I mean, there's so much
to get through with this week's guest.
It's hard to know where to start. Let me
begin by addressing all of the people
who expressed disappointment when I
interviewed Brian Cox, the physicist,
because they downloaded the podcast
expecting it to be Brian Cox, the actor.
>> Oh, well there you go.
>> So, thankfully, Brian Cox, the actor, is
now here.
>> That's a pleasure. So, we've done the
double. Um, Brian, it's a funny one this
because we normally veer through the
life and times of a guest before
happening upon the latest project, if
there is one towards the end of the the
end of the interview. But in many ways,
your latest project entails your life
and times because it it sees you go back
to Dundee where you grow up after the
death of your father in in relative
poverty and compare that with some of
the um things you've been exposed to
while portraying one of the richest men
in the world, Logan Roy, in in
succession. Um so we'll just dive in and
see where it takes us. It it it occurred
to me listening to you being interviewed
by someone else by John Wilson actually
on the excellent This cultural life that
you are somebody whose childhood you
you've always carried it
>> oh yeah
>> into adult life. Was that was that
always the case or is it something
you've come to laterally? No, it's I
I've always been it's always been the
case for me because I when I work with
young drama students or work with
anybody who wants to be an actor and
I've always said the most you know if we
didn't have mirrors and for cameras we
would never know what we look like
>> cuz we would always be it was it's you
know I can see my hands and that's it
but I never know what I look like. So in
a way I think of myself still as an as
an 8-year-old. I mean, there's a I've
got a little photograph of me as an
8-year-old, and that's the guy I
recognize as who I am, and I don't think
I've changed. I mean, I've got, you
know, I've developed in many ways
sexually and every other way,
>> grown a beard,
>> but grown a beard, you know, but I
haven't, you know, I haven't really
that. And when I talked to you on
Thomas, I said that's in essence who you
are, right?
>> And you never forget who you are. So,
always try and carry a picture of
yourself as a kid. So you just remind
when you're in real when you're having
real difficulty just take that
photograph out and look at it a long
time and look at that young face whether
it be a boy or whether it be a girl and
that will remind you exactly who you are
>> and what you what you hope for when you
were those when you were at that age
>> and would you have said that to me in
your 20s or your 30s would you have been
conscious of it in your
>> No as conscious as I became just through
working and and and learning the job of
teaching drama and teaching young actors
And it was something that probably came
towards yeah probably my early 30s it
suddenly hit me.
>> It's like the opposite of that Robert
Burns poem isn't it to allow when he
says would would some gift the power
give us to see ourselves as others see
us whereas in fact you're
>> you're focusing on seeing yourself as
you see yourself.
>> Exactly. And I think that's that's one
of the myths of uh well it's also to do
with religion as and all that you know.
I mean I think religion gets tied up
with self judgment and you know and and
I think it gets in the way quite
honestly.
>> You you you mentioned being eight that
is formative obviously because of the
loss of your dad and it's a huge pivot
in your childhood isn't it? Because you
go from being comfortably off to being
really badly off.
>> Yeah. Pretty badly off. Yeah.
>> Were you a happy 8-year-old? I mean were
you happy up until that point? Well, I
was happy up until that point and apart
from losing my dad, which was a big
thing for me and also my mom's mental
breakdown because I I did experience her
trying to
>> do herself in and stuff like that, you
know. Um, so that seems a bit glib stuff
like that. It's pretty major trying to
do yourself in. But I but I wasn't
unhappy. I was never unhappy. I I I just
was dealing with what I had to deal
with, you And I think that our sense I
mean you you think of people who've been
in much worse situations than I've been
in. People who've you know people who
survived kids who survived the Holocaust
you know what have you what they went
through what they had to experience you
know which is nothing like my
experience. So in a sense I was never I
was never unhappy. I I just was getting
on with it. You know you you know
surviving survival is about surviving
you know and I just learned to survive.
I just thought, well, you know, I've got
a life. Uh, I just have to get on with
what my life is. Even as an 8-year-old,
wasn't there was I mean, I always I was
very lucky because of my vocation. That
came to me very early on. So, I knew
that's what I wanted to do. So, it was
my my my objective, as it were, was to
get to the point doing what I wanted to
do. And I I didn't know how to do that,
but I just did it by being, you know. It
it's almost I mean it it lets you gives
you focus. It gives you direction and
that means you can somehow
>> close out places your mind might go if
you if you were meandering.
>> Exly. Exactly. Exactly right, James. I
mean that's exactly right. So you don't
meander. You you you
have singular of purpose even as young
as you are.
>> Were you a serious child?
>> No, I was a jokey child actually. I was
I was I was a terrible showoff and that
hasn't changed very much. I was a
terrible showoff when I was a child. And
uh
>> who was your audience?
>> You know, my audience were my pals, you
know, my little the Lion Street gang,
which was my gang. I lived in a place
called I lived in a ridiculous place
called Brown Constable Street. Don't ask
me why it was called Brown Constable
Street, but it was called Brown
Constable Street. And apparently the
rumor was it was based on an Indian
constable that lived in the the late
19th century. I mean I think that's a
nonsense but but so I forgive me if I
sound racist but I don't mean to be but
it was just it was just ridicul Anyway
the the main thorough was called Lion
Street. So we I was part of the Line
Street gang and they were all my mates
and you know and it was very you know I
went back there recently to to to
witness because I was doing this program
and it was very depressing to see you
know we had we still have the old poles
the old hanging pose with the with the
the the lines that we hung our washing
out. Now in my day, in that day and also
we had a wonderful huge concrete um air
air raid shelter in in the back garden
in the backyard where the backs what we
called the backs which was shared by all
these flats and uh going back there you
know it was so depressing what had
happened because the poles were standing
empty the lines were but there was no
washing
>> so there was no con and the other thing
that I thought was really sad was that
when I was a kid we all had our name on
the door
>> right You know, we went up to the
various apartments and there was Mrs.
Robbie, there was Mrs. McGillan, there
was Mrs. There was the uh the Watsons at
the top, there was the Curries as well
and there were families. But now you go
up and it's my number was 19 Brown
Conipible Street. So there it's number
one, it's number two, it's number three.
So it's it's all been depersonalized in
some way. And once you do that, you you
sort of depersonalize community. It it
it it makes people fractious. So it
doesn't actually bring people together.
And I think growing up postw war the
sense of togetherness was so much
stronger than we ever we've ever had it
since.
>> And was there a sense of place as well?
>> Very much a sense of place. Very much a
sense of where you came from. Difficult
as it was. Dundee was not an easy town.
But the great thing about Dundee and the
great thing about is the Dondonians is
the people and the people have always
out out because the town has been you
know the juke industry was pretty
merciless in in how it treated people
and the juke barons and all and my
family all came from Ireland.
>> But your mom worked in the mills.
>> My mom was a spinner originally and my
dad was a bachelor. places you
astonishingly, doesn't it, in terms of
of of the passage of time to to have a
foot via your parents in in the actual
mills almost the kind of stuff that
Blake was writing. Pretty
>> bleak. Yeah. And it was, you know, it
was a long time before I was born. But
was that my mom because we had the shop
and my dad he he didn't want to go into
the shop initially. Um my mom did the
shop and she was pregnant twice with
both my elder sisters and uh but he
liked the life of the mill. Uh but he
was very good at figures. He had a he he
was had this both him and my late
brother had this ability to look at a
row of figures and immediately add up. I
mean I can't do that. I have no I have
no I have no talent in that direction
whatsoever. So in that sense it was it
was it was the community and it was a
sense of community that I didn't even
realize. I only realized laterally what
an incredible community and how lucky I
was
>> because that's all you know
>> because it's what I knew.
>> So you presume it's normal.
>> Yeah. And uh and you see it now being
fractured more and more and more and
more and more. And this is why I
eventually did what I did this program.
I did.
>> Yeah. Which which takes you right back,
we should say. It's called How the Other
Half Live. And it essentially, as I
mentioned, compares
that to where where you've ended up or
where the character you currently play
has ended up. And trying to make some
sense of those two worlds. It it brings
your politics into things as well,
though. And your politics begin, I
think, with your dad's shop in a way.
>> Yeah.
>> And I love this phrase that I've heard
you say that you he he struggled with
his socialism by dent of being a
shopkeeper. It took me a while to
understand what you meant by that, but
you meant
>> it's capitalism, isn't it? Running a
shop. And if people couldn't pay their
bills, your dad's instinct, his
political, his emotional, his moral
instinct
>> was to take care of them.
>> Was to take care of them.
>> Whereas your mom would perhaps be a
little bit
>> My mom My mom was concerned.
>> Yes. She was concerned about his
generosity. I mean a great thing was to
me I mean right from the word go was
Brian remember charity begins at home.
>> Yes.
>> You know and and of course there's a lot
of sense in there is
>> but then my father was completely he he
was I found this letter that was it was
actually not a letter. It was a it was a
an excerpt from her diary that she wrote
when the day my father was buried.
>> And it was a beautiful thing. It was
beautifully written. My mom really had
great skill as a writer and it was very
loving and very forgiving and yet at the
same time acknowledging what she
described beautifully in very 1950s
terms as misgivings. they had their
misgivings which I thought was such a
wonderful phrase you know it's a
beautiful phrase you know for for the
the differences and and they did you
know and she could witness them but she
also came from fairly rough background
her her I only discovered about her
father her father was a he was he was in
the first world war uh he we didn't know
what had happened to him lost his
military records and I've just done this
thing called finding your roots in
America Yeah.
>> And I discovered that
we we thought he'd made it all up, but
actually he hadn't. He had been but he'd
been on the Western Front. Now, most
people did the Western Front for maybe 6
months tops.
>> He was there for 2 years and that was
pretty horrific,
>> of course.
>> And it really kind of destroyed
something in him. I mean, it's ironic
that when he left, when he was
discharged, he was discharged with
emphyma because he was gassed. He had
frozen feet. I know that he'd lost some
of his couple of his toes. Uh but he was
but then when he died like less than 9
years after the event after he died in
27, the war ended in 18, he uh he died
of on his desertive was bronchitis and
it clearly wasn't bronchitis. It clearly
was as a result of what he'd been
through.
>> And he won us a whole bunch of medals.
>> Wow.
>> Which we never saw.
>> So his heroism was what you thought he
made up.
>> Yeah. We we thought we made it all up,
but they were all there. But he it and
it seems to me that nobody ever saw
these medals. So my imaginative thing is
that there was an element of disgust and
he threw them all away
>> or he shut the door on the memories
anyway.
>> He shut the door on the memories anyway.
>> So So she came from that. And for
instance, her younger sister couldn't
stand her father and she ran away at
quite early age. But my mother was the
eldest and she obviously had a closer
connection with him.
>> Conscious of how easily things could be
lost then as well which would explain
why she'd be more concerned than your
dad with
>> Absolutely. Absolutely. That's very well
put. Yeah. Exactly.
>> You don't have that. You didn't inherit
that.
>> No. No. Not at all. Not at all. I mean I
you know
because
the great thing about being in the
theater is is a sense of community. It
never changes. I mean you meet actors
after you may not have worked together
for 15 years, 20 years and suddenly it
was it's as if no time passed
whatsoever. That's the great quality of
actors that they have that immediacy
with one another that they don't they
know that they're part of a a brother
and sisterhood, you know,
>> and there's an accelerating bonding
process, isn't there? It's much faster
than sitting next to someone in an
office for a couple of years. You you're
together for two months, but you go to
places that you rarely go.
>> That's right. And and because of the
material you're dealing with and the
great writers you're dealing with,
you're you're really dealing with the
material and it's it's always
challenging of the of the
>> of your humanity. Before we get to the
vocation then, let's talk a bit about
the new project because as I say, it's
so it's so it's so very much you, isn't
it? It's so very much who you are. How
the other half live is well you came up
with the idea yourself I think what
partly
>> well no it was in fairness it was a guy
called Tom O'Brien who came to see me
and I've been thinking about you know
cuz I mean I love doing the show I mean
I love you know it's a great show to do
and it's a brilliantly written show by
the writers and Jesse Armstrong I love
the show but I but I was also because
I'm playing this
>> horribly rich person you know I just
thought I want to get a perspective I
want I need to do something with some
kind of perspective on on that, you
know, I I don't want to be and also I
don't even though I'm I'm so identified
now it's ridiculous. I can't go anywhere
but and without somebody asking me to
use the words fo to them, you know,
>> I may do that near the end
on a constant level which is which is
tiring to say the least. Yes, I'm sure.
But what happened was I was just I don't
know it was it was so interesting
because I I I realized that that I I
needed something that was the opposite
of that. And then Tom came and said I'm
thinking of doing a show about money.
And immediately the light went on. I
said yes
>> that's the great divider. That's what we
all have in common and it's the thing we
never talk about. It's a thing that
nobody ever, you know, people are ready
to talk about the religion. They're
ready to throw religion at you left,
right, and center. And of course, we all
have different religions. So, it's a
there's a sort of bit of a discussion on
that point. But with money, we all have
the same fundamentally the same attit
>> and there are some people who have it
and some people who just do not have it
and probably never will have it. And I
just wanted to look at that and look at
what that diversity was and how valid uh
you know we we we talk about it now
because we're in such a bad state now
with the inflation going through the
roof
>> but I'm just concerned about the fact
that we've never really attended to it.
We don't we we you know we we make all
these promises and we do all this thing
and said yes we must do that and it
becomes tokenist after a while. you
never really tackled the depth of the
problem, you know, and and one of
>> which is inequality,
>> which is inequality, which is deep
inequality. And you know, for example,
the legitimization of food banks, you
know, now food banks are regarded as oh
the well, I mean, I heard some some MP,
I can't remember which faculty he was,
but he was saying, "Oh, well, at least
they've got food banks now." And you go,
"Well, that is nothing to be proud of."
>> Jacob Reemore called them uplifting.
Oh,
>> well, he would.
>> Yes, he would.
>> What an idiot he is. We was less said
about somebody like him and most of that
party the best.
>> You're right. The normalization is is
the idea that
>> That's right. And that's what I just
couldn't bear. And I just thought
>> you played Night Beaven, didn't you?
>> I did.
>> Didn't he say the thing about charity
being a cold heart? I think was it him?
I think it was.
>> Well, he was one of the great
inspirations. I mean, he was the man who
created the National Health Service. you
know, we and we've had these amazing
institutions which are the enemy of the
world and we don't treat them with the
respect they deserve. Don't
>> cherish them, you know,
>> we just don't.
>> So, you you you dug into this. You went
back to Dundy. You went to not quite a
food bank cuz it it
>> Well, I went to what was called a
community ladder.
>> Which is the leg is where you know
because what they never understand is
that dignity is important to the human
soul. that the human soul has to have a
sense of their own dignity and when that
is tread upon as a system can do
relentlessly.
It needs to be established. So what
these women who ran this play group did
and it's actually there's a lot more of
them throughout the country now called
community ladders. And what the
community ladders do, they charge they
charge the minimal like for two quid you
can get tin goods. For four quid you can
get tin and dry goods. And then for six
you can get tin dry and miscellaneous
stuff. So that's what that's run on. And
it was run by these two people, two
women who ran play groups who hit this
idea that knew this fact of the loss of
dignity. And so I interviewed people on
that, you know, about what they were
doing. And it was very revealing. And
what was particularly revealing and I I
can't remember if it's in the show or
not because I we we originally it was
supposed to be a three-part program, but
eventually we we couldn't get the third
part because we we couldn't get enough
rich people to talk. It was we could get
endless poor people to talk, but we
couldn't get enough rich people to talk.
So that meant made it difficult. So we
ended up with two programs. But one of
the things that was in the book which
was was so revealing to me was I was
interviewing this this man came in and
he was quite lame and he had a stick and
he also had a sign on his arm and he
came in and and he um so I was asking
him so I said so this is for your family
cuz everybody was doing for the family
said no no no I I don't do it to for one
particular family said I work for about
15 families over a period of I do five
families a week and there are people who
can't get here. They just have not the
ability to get here. So, they give me
the money and I come down and I do the
shopping for them and I take it to them.
I said, "You do this on a regular
basis?" He said, "Yeah, I do it. You
know, I've got these 15 people I work
for, you know." I said, "Well, that's
amazing." I said, "That's incredibly
generous." And I said, "So, what's
what's this here?" He said, "Oh, I'm
blind."
>> And I I I it just it still reverberates
with me. I mean just an astonishing act
of heroism of this man who is blind
doing this and I said so why do you do
it he said well if I don't do it who
will you know I just it was you know it
it it provides a full stop really you
know did you it in a sense you're doing
journalism it it feels like a slightly
inadequate term but
it it's shining lights into parts of
life that perhaps wouldn't otherwise be
illuminated. Did you feel impotent ever?
Did you feel
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Was that difficult?
>> Very difficult. It was very difficult
because I could, you know, because I
kept also I kept reflecting it back to
me. Yes.
>> And my situation, what I'd come to and
how I done and how well I've done over
the years, you know, mind you, it's
taken me 60 years to get on with it, you
know, and
>> better late than never.
>> Better late than never. And I'm now in
my 70s. So, you know, so in a way I'm
I'm going, well, I to a certain extent,
well, I've earned it, you know, because
I put the work in. But at the same time
it does make you think it makes you
consider yourself and say you know am I
spoiled you know what am I doing you
know and that's why one does the
programs because you think the only way
I can do it is by communication the only
way I can do it is by standing up and
saying you know this is you got to look
at this
>> there's a problem here and we're
ignoring it it's like this so when you
know when sunnac and various people
talked about trickle down economics it's
bollocks there's no such thing as
trickle down economics there's only What
it it is. Yeah, there's there is trickle
down and it's a trickle that you get
only trickle if you're lucky.
>> And and that I I mean I can see the
8-year-old again cuz I'm sort of
thinking why would you bother doing this
at this stage in your life when you've
made it when you're over the line when
you're home and driving but it's the
curiosity as well as the empathy with
little you with young you.
>> Yeah. And it is also to do with that
memory of community and harmony.
>> You know, and how we are no longer in a
state of harmony,
>> you know, and the the
>> You're not being a bit rose tinted about
your childhood when you use words like
that. I don't think you are, but I
wasn't.
>> No, no, no. I mean, no, we came through,
you know, the the 20th century was a
rough century. Yes.
>> Cuz democracy wasn't alive until
>> 1945 did ever really, you know, it was
45 years before it came into place. And
even then it was dubious to say the
least.
>> Incomplete.
>> Incomplete. Yeah, that's a good word.
Incomplete. But that's what I also felt.
And I felt that I was
>> and that was a blissful time because it
was a time and it was the you know I
remember the coronation vividly. I
remember all of that. My dad did the
whole party for this for our particular
neighborhood
Lion Street neighborhood. And uh you
know that was you know he he he did
that. He made sure that everybody
celebrated and there was a lot to
celebrate and I remember standing on you
know my friend David Straen's mom and
dad Ella and Davey Strachen they the
only people had a television so we stood
on the stair all waiting to watch our 5
minutes of queen and go up we got 5
minutes then we went the next person
came in but that was the sense of
community and there was a real strong it
was something very vibrant
>> and and something that was you know very
you had a had a great sense a great
outlook.
>> Yes, of course.
>> And that outlook was not realized. You
know,
>> I want to ask I said we'd jump around.
So, let's jump around. So, when your
vocation kicks in though, you you you
must be conscious immediately that you
have
>> ambitions and aspirations far beyond
this community. A lot of people
>> comfortable within it, tempting never to
leave it, but not for you.
>> Well, it was, you know, because even as
a child, I you know, sense of curiosity
more than anything else. I'd look at the
Tay and it's a big river the Tay and I
would think I'm going to cross that I'm
going to cross that one day and I and
ultimately I did
>> I mean I was again blissful but I knew
that there was a world elsewhere
>> and you wanted you wanted your place in
it
>> and I wanted to find where I'm supposed
to be in it you know and whether it's
you know whether it's a valid thing you
know
>> there was no nobody telling you to to to
to wind your neck in to know your place
or
>> No no not at all well it got a bit like
that when I when I returned to Scotland
and find
>> what was great was the '60s, you know,
and nobody understands what the ' 60s
was like. Nobody understands the freedom
that was there. the fact that of the the
social mobility of the 1960s
>> where you were welcomed, you know, the
people were welcomed to come, you know,
I was welcomed to go to drama school
when I and I had a an accident action
you could cut with a knife, you know,
but I I was very very welcomed and it
was one it was the best time, you know,
to come to and then of course that was
that there was the first Labor
government. There was the first Wilson
government that happened around about
the same time with
>> just the sense of what was achievable
must have been intoxicating.
>> Exactly. Exactly.
>> And you were riding that way. You felt
>> I felt I felt that. I felt that I was
part of a, you know, and especially
working at someone like the Royal Court,
which I did in the early days. And that
was that theater represented that very
much represented that kind of visionary,
you know, it was a visionary place.
>> Where where then to to back up slightly
where when did the vocation kick in? Was
it a bookish household? I know that
after you lost your dad, you're essent
and your mother was very poorly. Um,
you're essentially raised by your
sister. But where school I think St.
Michael's Junior Secondary, you lasted
there until you were 15. Where did the
first
>> Well, I think
>> sniff of the grease paint come from.
>> I Well, the sniff of it came from the
Scots ability to celebrate,
>> right?
>> Particularly New Year hugman. I mean, it
all gets pissed as farts, but you know,
uh, but at the same time, there was
this, you know, everybody did a turn,
everybody did a song, everybody
contributed. So everybody had a had a
performer. I mean I mean we're all
actors, you know. I mean I just think
everybody's an actor. You whenever you
go into a situation, you put on a you
put on something in order to deal with
the situation. So that's basically
fundamentally what acting is.
>> And yet authenticity is the is the
hallmark of the best actor. There's a
contradiction there in a way.
>> Yeah. But but but there's nothing more
authentic than the attempt to try and do
something.
>> No, of course. So you you discovered
this? Well, I discovered when I was when
I was three, it was my dad again and my
sister. My sister had a still I mean
she's 90 now, but she has a wonderful
singing voice. And uh so at New Year,
she'd be singing and everybody loved
May's singing, you know, she was very
they were all very excited about. And
then I'd be brought on at 1:00 in the
morning, I would be sleeping, you know,
and my our flat was there was two
bedrooms and my three sisters uh were in
one bedroom. They all got married quite
well. Two of them got married quite
quickly and the other one went to
Canada. So they were there and my mom
and dad were in what they called the Wii
bedroom and then my brother and I slept
in the kitchen al cove bedroom where the
bed was in an al cove in the kitchen. So
that was it. And except on New Year we
had to clear out of the kitchen in the
kitchen cuz everybody's in the kitchen.
So uh I slept in my mom's room. So they
would wake me about 1:00 and I'd come
out and I would do um I would sing. I
would do I would do Al Jolson
impersonations at the age of
>> well I was four three and I would do
this with them the actions I mean I
didn't do the blackface didn't do any of
that but I did did the whole thing
>> and I just remember
what happened to the room the dynamic of
the room changed
there was you know everybody drinking
but there was this focus and I just
thought it was so palpable you could cut
it just this kind of I I don't know the
the ability for human beings to focus as
a cohesion, you know, which is which is
why I'm a socialist. And I just thought
this is an extraordinary thing. Human
beings are are surprising. They're full
of contradictions. But when push comes
to shove, there's something that brings
can bring them together. And one of the
things is performance brings a focus.
And I thought that never left me. And
that was the thing that and of course
being an actual showoff. Sure. It kind
of
>> it's more than showing off.
>> Well, it's more than showing off but as
a child as a child you know from a
child's point of view but it's also to
do with
>> and was it nurtured once you found it?
Was it
>> well once it was it was nurtured uh you
know initially in my it was nurtured by
extraordinary things not by anything
educational. Okay.
>> But by
by remiss. For instance, I had a
headmaster at my primary school who
needed he would need what we call in
Scotland messages, errands. He would
need somebody to go for errands for him.
And one of the things was to get a
stylus for his um gramophone that he
had. He had a Philips gramophone. And I
had and I would be sent off because I
would he would look around the car and
he said, "I want someone to go for a
message for me. Could someone go? I need
a and I would put my hand up and say I
go. So this was part of my education. So
I would go off and I would wander off
into the town, have a wonderful time,
finally go to Lars, which was the the
shop and order the stylus and then go
but I'd waste the whole day. My
education was going down. So as a
result, I failed my 11 plus.
>> It was a disaster. And um but I was
smart. I kind of knew I was smart, but I
wasn't scholastically smart.
>> Sure. And there was presumably not a
great deal of pressure on you at home to
do your homework or anything.
>> No pressure at all. None at all. I mean,
I didn't I mean, I had no parental help
whatsoever. I mean, I was none. I mean,
absolutely zilch. And therefore, my
education was pretty horrible. I mean, I
was I I failed at everything except I
succeeded in some things, but I usually
got marks taken off for untidiness.
>> But you knew roughly where you wanted to
be heading then already.
>> I kind of did. I'm very fortunate. I
mean, I realize how blessed I am when I
look at people who struggle with knowing
what they want to do with their life. I
never I've never had that problem. And
also, you you magnetize people when you
when you're when you're in a state,
people come to you. There were two
teachers at my at St. Michaels. There
was a guy called Bill Dur who really
introduced me to the theater. Of course,
I didn't know about the theater. Uh and
then there was a guy called George
Hackett who was my registra teacher who
was a wonderful man and he just he just
took care of me from a distance. And
these two men I realized were very
important in my life. And as older I get
the I realized how important these two
guys were because they they they they
were able to clear paths for me, you
know, that I could go down a road and
find something. And with Bill, it was,
you know, being a member of the rep
club, going to the rep on a Wednesday
afternoon at the age of 14. And I went
and I'd never seen live theater. I
didn't know anything about live actors.
I didn't know even such an animal
existed in the theater.
>> And and the theater was always regarded
slightly as a sort of relatively middle
class pursuit. It wasn't as liberated as
it became in the 60s. Uh and uh my
auntie Kathy used to go there. She and
she was very very very
kind of middle class aspirant. So you
>> the touch of the high since bouquet.
>> Yeah. Exactly. And uh they used to
Anthony Paige who was the director of
the theater called them the felties cuz
the women all wore these felt hats.
>> Did did either of these teachers did did
did you keep in touch with them? Were
they aware of a bit? But George
>> your success
>> George went to I had a wonderful thing
recently. I went to Australia recently
and uh sadly I went I wanted to meet
George but he was he was in his 90s and
he passed away. I I missed them by about
>> but they'd have been aware of what young
>> Yeah. Oh, they were very aware they they
and Bill J died quite early on so he he
he he didn't but George was there and in
fact what was so wonderful was that um
>> George's son is an artist and uh as part
of the celebration of the well not the
celebration but as a part of the
mourning process of their fathers but
there was there was also a celebrant of
his life they had these little busts
made of him tiny busts and actually in
some of the bus they put ashes bits of
his ash in the bus and they gave it to
friends.
>> I didn't get the ash, but I got the bus.
And there was George in his '9s, but I
could still see the young George. I
knew, you know, and so I've got that
back home and that this is from a recent
trip. I must just tell you briefly why I
asked you that question is because Alan
Johnson, the the the Labour politician
who's an orthod was sitting there a
couple of weeks ago and he told me a
story about the teacher in his life who
was incredibly influential and formative
and he tracked him down after he'd been
home secretary after he'd made it in the
big in the in the to say the teacher had
no idea who he was had no memory of him
whatsoever. So So you're lucky that no I
I I was very lucky on that time.
>> Um and it happened quite quickly. So you
leave school at 15. Obviously not a
great loss by your own account to
academia.
>> No. And certainly not from their point
of view. Um happy to get rid of me.
>> And there was rep in Dundee at the time.
And you you slotted in quite
>> Yeah. I I I Well, again, Bill Jur got me
in the interview. So I was very grateful
to him for that. And it happened to be
that again, you know, circumstances
circumstances plays so much in one's
life.
>> Serendipity, isn't it?
>> Yeah. Serendipity. And he had a he had a
young man who had been at my school and
he'd gone down my road and he had worked
at the rep and his job was going he was
going to a drama school and his job was
free and it was a general factor totem
job basically it was do what I used to
know how to do which was to go errands
you know I was very good at errands and
they and they would trust me a
15year-old boy with the the night's
takings which I took to the bank every
day and I thought why did they trust me
on that I could have done a runner you
No, but I used to take the money to the
bank and and then eventually after a
while they allowed me backstage, you
>> and then on stage at all or did that
>> Oh, yeah. No, I I started I was very
lucky actually. I There was always tiny
parts like walk on parts that I would
play and I would show quite imagination
in in playing these.
>> Would you would you be conscious of
trying to make a little more of your
own?
>> Oh, yeah. Exactly. I would I would, you
know, I would do I remember I did the I
did the sort of paper boy and picnic,
you know, and I I put blonde highlights
in my hair, you know, it was kind of
weird. I mean, really strange stuff.
>> And then eventually I sort of, you know,
and I would take care of the actors and,
you know, my my one of my funny things
was uh um the late Lynn Redgrave who
just left drama school. She was at
Central and she came up to play Porsche
uh in u Merchant of Venice and after the
first night she couldn't find her wig.
She'd lost her wig and uh I was sent on
a mission to find her wig and I found
her wig. It was in a waste paper basket
by her dad. She'd take it and thrown it
in the waste paper basket. So I took the
wig and it was in a terrible state. So I
went to the stage manager. I said, "What
do I do about the wig?" And he said,
"Well, see if you can get it fixed." I
said, "Yeah, but we we haven't got any
hair department here." So, I went and
bought these thing called I think they
were called Carmon rollers and I I
rolled I I set Lynn's wig, you know,
every night. Well, not every night,
every other night
>> whenever it was necessary.
>> Um, there's no sense yet, Brian, of of
it feeling like a a citadel that would
be hard to breach. There's a very
there's a sense of quite natural
progression.
>> It was very organic.
>> That's incredibly lucky.
>> Yeah, it it is. I think it's because it
started so young,
>> And I had the vision of it so young and
then I never bothered about it. I just
got on with my life.
>> I think I was blessed, you know. I think
I was remarkably blessed in just in
terms of where I could place myself and
how people could place me and how
people, you know, people like Bill, like
George, who saw that I was a fish out of
water, saw that I was in a school which
was so technically oriented. I mean, if
you saw my boats that I made in the
carpentry shop, I mean, they wouldn't
they wouldn't last for a day in the
water, you know? They would immediately
be sinkable, you know.
>> And yet, you knew you were good at it.
You knew you were good at this.
>> I knew I was good at it.
>> Not just that you liked it. You knew you
were good at it.
>> I knew I was good at it. I knew I had
the ability and I just needed to learn,
you know. I knew
>> which is which is why you say sites on
lambda presumably. Did you audition for
all of the schools? No. No. Just
>> No. No. I was I was very influenced by
this woman who sadly passed away last
year. Uh she's called Christian
Linklater and uh she was a voice teacher
and she's written a lot on the voice and
she is the sister of Magnus Linklater
who was the uh editor of the Guardian I
think the Scotsman as well
>> and uh I think the Scotsman I'm not sure
it was a Guardian. Anyway, he uh she she
came up to Dundee
>> and the guy who was the you know I work
with three directors mainly at Dundy.
Pierce Haggard, Tony Page, Pierce
Haggard, and a guy called Bill Davis.
Now, Bill's interesting because he's
he's Canadian. Uh he's famous now, Bill,
though he still is a basically he sees
himself as a director, not an actor, but
he's been acting, but he's famous for
playing the smoking man in the X Files,
>> And Bill uh he's was the director of the
theater. He said, "Look, I we've got
this u uh we've got this young woman
coming up uh from Lambda." And that was
the first time I said lamb they said
well that's where I went to school and
said she's coming up she's
>> I she's going to do she's going to do
some voice work and I I had no idea what
voice work and she said we'll have a
voice class would you like to come I had
no idea what that was and I said sure
I'll come yeah fine anything you know so
they included me and that was the other
thing about them that I was included you
know and that was why it was that it was
never it really was egalitarian in that
sense
>> it's a huge recurring theme in your life
isn't this sense of being part of
something different.
>> That's right. That's right. And and
valued it. So immediately they said,
"Okay, come up." And um and I went to
this voice class and of course it
changed me. I just thought, you know,
she she works on this woman called Iris
Warren. It's the method of how you how
you and it's all about your breathing,
you know. It's it's the most fundamental
thing and how you breathe and how it
comes the voice comes through the
through the the vocal cords and and the
less strain you put here and the more
attention you give to this the diaphragm
the voice works for you in a way which
is means that you don't lose your voice.
I mean, I've lost my voice because I've
overused it, particularly if I've been
away. And then I come back and I do a
you I remember going to Turkey once
coming back and I felt great sun and
everything and I did a night of Titus
and the following day I couldn't speak
cuz I I hadn't warmed up properly.
>> So that and I thought that's where I
want to go. I want to go to that school
and that was the only school I have in
mind and I I didn't audition. I got in.
>> How old were you when you got there?
>> 17.
>> Gosh. And and I mean that is a culture
shock, isn't it? to go from your albeit
that you'd had a an exposure to to
>> well I'd been exposed to the theater
>> but not not to the to to to London in
>> No London was
>> away from home for the first time
>> away from home you know I mean I first
night I slept in a bathroom I remember
uh yeah I mean it was weird it was
>> and you got stuck straight in
>> I got stuck straight in and and and and
then I was I was you know there was a
wonderful guy who ran this school called
Michael Mcen uh who's a great visionary
and uh great teachers Norman Aton and a
wonderful woman who did called Patricia
Arnold who did the movement. So I was
very lucky.
>> And for the first time you have peers
now. Did you find your tribe? Did you I
mean I know you felt part of a bigger
community at various stages in your life
from the Lion Street gang through to
through to rep. But did you feel now
that you were with your people or
>> Yeah, I felt very much this is where I
should be, you know. I mean I
immediately felt at home you know and
and that's the thing about the theater I
mean
it is there is this feeling of being at
home you know
>> and how ambitious were you?
>> Oh I was very ambitious were you? Yeah I
I mean that was one of the problems I I
had to deal with was my ambition. It was
my great spiritual mentor Fulton Mai.
The Scottish actor Fulton Mccai used to
say, "Oh, Brian, Brian, Brian, don't
worry about being a star. Just be a good
actor."
>> And it was the best advice he ever gave
me.
>> How long did it take you to take it?
>> No, I did it quite quickly, actually.
Because I was getting, you know, you
know, I I had very I had great early
success. I made my first West End
appearance when I was 21. You know,
>> what was that?
>> It was uh As You Like It from Birmingham
Rep. So I you know and and then I did
wonderful play with Alan Bates and Jimmy
Bolan which we filmed directed by
Lindseay Anderson and Fulton actually
was in that as well. So but I knew
Fulton from before I knew from when I
started I started at the Lysm in
Edinburgh. I went back to Scotland
started there and had a a year and then
I went to Birmingham and then Birmingham
is where I started playing all I mean I
played these roles before I was 22. I
played Iago Mushio Pier Gint. Wow. uh
Bowling Brook, Orlando, all before the
age of 22.
>> So you came out of the blocks at 100
miles.
>> Yeah, I did. I mean, I was terrible on
all of them probably. Of
>> course you were.
>> But you know, but that was part of it.
>> So, so the the advice that Falter Mcai
gave you then was really addressing a
desire to be a star rather than an
actor.
>> Yeah. I mean, because you've got that,
you know, you've got, you know, you
know, I mean, and especially for me
because my influence right from the word
go was the cinema, you know, it was the
movies. I mean it was the the pictures
>> that was in your sides.
>> Yeah. And the pictures was already
there, you know.
>> As a complete aside cuz if is my
favorite film of all time. What was
Lindseay Anderson like to work with?
>> Fantastic. Fantastic. He was a wonderful
director. He was a great he was
difficult. He he had his own demons as
it were which he never there was never a
disclosure about his demons. He was just
there
>> and but he had such he was such a an
observer of the human condition. He
really did, you know, because he was
essentially he started as a documentary
maker. So that was his great gift and
then he made these films like, you know,
like the sporting life, which I think is
a great movie. You know,
>> it's the big break for Richard Harris,
you know, and so that was a fantastic
film and then, you know, and then
working with them when I did work with
them and I I, you know, I wor with him
in 1969, we did the play and then later
on five years later, we did the we did
the movie, you know, and it was
No, he was just amazing. Lindsay,
>> so does your career then go in stages.
Are you I mean cuz you you you talk
about that very early success and then
by I think by 2007 the film council the
UK film council is telling you call
you're one of the 10 most powerful
British film stars in Hollywood. 10
years before that you might have popped
up in an episode of Sharp. Then you've
got Hollywood. It's it's almost
impossible to to to
how how can I put this? It's almost
impossible to knit a thread through your
career. It's so
>> Well, it's not a gradient, is it?
>> Well, it is a form. Well,
>> it's more of a it's more of a heart
machine.
>> No, it it it there does come a point in
one's in one's career. It's horrible
thing. There does come a point in one's
career. There there did come a point in
my career where I had to reinvent
myself.
>> Right? So there's a process of
reinvention which takes you back takes
you that means that the curve isn't a
direct curve.
So you're constantly, you know, and and
that's important because you, you know,
I mean, I look at actors and no names,
no pack, wonderful actors who stayed too
long at the fair. Ah,
>> okay.
>> You know, who who who have who should
have moved.
>> They could always go back, but they
should have moved because maybe they
were at Stratford too long or maybe at
the national too long or maybe, you
>> that's it. That's the key to
understanding what I just asked you
there, right there. and and and and
therefore I thought get in, get out. You
know, I'm a bit of a commander in that
way. You know, you go in,
>> hopefully you score, sometimes you
don't, and then you get out and then and
you wait for the next impetus to come
along
>> and something that excites you. It's not
going to be the thing you've been doing
for the last 5 years.
>> No. No, it's not going to be
>> But you can always go back to it.
>> That's what And well that the thing
about that the thing you've done for the
last 5 years never leaves you. That's
always there. I mean that's always in
reserve
>> and all that stuff keep you keep in
reserve you know and so and it and it
feeds you
>> in many ways we're back to the curiosity
that's driven you since
>> childhood aren't we we're back to the
sense of wanting new experiences and new
things
>> yeah I mean and that hasn't changed
which is why
>> which is why you've done the new project
>> that's why it's exactly that you know
exactly comes to that because also you
know and everybody goes oh here you are
now you know and it's very hard you know
playing Logan Roy because
>> everybody knows who I am you And
>> about the first time
>> more or less I mean people always sort
of oh you're weren't you in you that was
that always that went on but now I'm
known for the man who says [\h__\h] off you
know all the time. So you know I never
and my mother knew that would become my
academy. She'd be doing back flips in
her grave. Oh no the shame the shame of
it you know. So it's kind of weird but
but again it's only a stop.
>> Yeah of course
>> it's for me it's not the end stop. It's
just, you know, there the Logan Roy
years. This two will pass and hopefully
I'm still around and I've still got
enough capacity, you know, brain
capacity to to go on. Let's just pick a
couple of things that people would be
fascinated to know more about. Did I
mean you you did you talk about
Stratford and and you you you you were
in Leo when Olivier was playing there.
You played the Duke of Burgundy.
>> I did. That was on the television. Yeah.
I was supposed to play another part that
was for another great director in my
life. uh who's the father of uh Marian
Elliot, Michael Elliot, who was a genius
director, absolutely genius director who
who then very bravely, you know, he'd
run the Vic at one point and he was part
of that.
>> He then moved to Manchester to the Royal
Exchange and created the Royal Exchange
in Manchester, which was a pretty
formidable theater, particularly it
still is, but it was particularly
formidable in and its inception, you
know, which was really in the mid80s.
>> Yeah. Robert Lindsay's been on full
disclosure and he was very much part of
that. Robert did a lot up there. Yeah.
He did his hamlet there and everything
and I I and but Michael was a great
influence for me. He just a man of
incredible integrity. I mean fierce and
kind of you know sort of his father was
the um his father was the the the
Buckingham Palace's dean. You know he
was St. Michael's he's named after St.
Michael's Chester. He was a he was a
minister, you know, and uh and very very
big very big very big kind of um
uh sort of influence on Mike and
Michael, you know, and had that sort of
purity of vision. You you you sound
almost like a magpie when you talk about
people in a good way in the sense of
what what you can learn from them and
what you can take from an encounter and
a relationship and a working.
>> It's so important. It's so important
that I don't mind that magpie thing
because it's it's how you learn.
>> Yeah. you know and and there's no
>> but you teach as well so it goes
>> but but yeah but but there's no one way
there's a series of roots you know
there's a series of roots you can take
there's a series of spiritual paths you
can take I'm all for pursuing anything I
I if it's self-improving if it's meaning
that you
>> you're still with you know you're still
with the program you know and you're not
>> going off at some kind of I and that's
what ambition does I mean ambition the
wrong kind of ambition kind of takes you
away from really your essence, you know,
that thing that that is that is in an
8-year-old child, you know. Was there a
point at which you thought
I'm okay now? At which you thought, I've
I'm because to begin so quickly with
such amazing work, did you get too early
a sense of security? I know actors
always answer this question by saying,
"I never feel any sense of security."
But you're never going to be going to
the workhouse, are you? No, no, no. I I
never I I mean, you know, the it's
>> it's hard to describe because it's it's
it's not stable, but that's also why you
love it because of its instability.
>> Okay.
>> Uh you know, but it's possible.
>> Was there a sense I've made it now ever
>> in professional terms? Did you ever have
that?
>> No. I I I I mean, I knew I was doing
well. Yes. But I never got to the point
where because if you say I've made it,
you immediately put an end stop on
>> Again, it's that constant moving
forward.
>> Yeah. You It's about moving forward all
the time. You don't end stop anything,
you know, and that's why, you know,
somebody like Logan Roy is not it's a
stop on the career, but it's not an end
stop in itself, you know.
>> And and that I mean that keeps you
grounded as much as anything and it
keeps you fresh. And it was fascinating
hearing you talk about um about how the
other half live almost as part of the
process of playing Logan Roy. It helps
you put in a better performance when
you've got some sort of
>> better you talk about self-improvement
that can be understanding things. That
can be a method of self-improvement just
having a better understanding of how
someone can live with epic wealth for
example.
>> That's right. And and and of course you
you you learn
and what was very important for me and
what was tough for me about doing the
program was judging
>> because I could easily because of my
where I come from politically I could
easily start to judge but you can't do
>> You're very generous to to some of the
very very wealthy people that did agree
to speak to you.
>> Yeah. But I think one has to be because
in a way they're more fragile. It's very
interesting. They're as fragile as
somebody who is extremely poor.
>> Yes. you know, they and you go, "What do
you mean they're fragile?" Well, they're
fragile because of because they know
that they've done it. I mean, like John
Cordwell, for example, I mean, the
phones guy, isn't it?
>> Yeah. So, he was fascinating to me
because and he he's a man that I could
have easily gone in full judgmental. I
could have easily done that.
>> But that would not have been helpful.
And what's interesting, what interests
me and what interests me as an actor is
what motivates you.
>> What does it come from? Where does it
come from? And you have to understand
that people, some people do have
entrepreneurial spirits.
>> Now John Caldwell for example, he sold
comics out of his backyard, out of his
back window when he was six.
>> He would sell these comics and then he
would say to his powers, "What what do
you do with your old comics?" They said,
"Well, we just throw them." Well, give
them to me. And of course, he that's
that's where his entrepreneurial skills
finally led him cuz that's what he
believed. That's that was his res on
debt. And you've got to respect that. I
mean, you can judge it all you like, but
you've got to respect the fact that
people are motivated by not what is
obvious. They're motivated by usually
circumstances where there's always an
element of deprivation of whether it's
deprivation of the spirit or deprivation
of the soul. There's an element that
drives you forward.
>> So, if there's a mystery that you're
trying to solve with the show, it's how
these two states can coexist in the same
society. Exactly.
>> And that's the answer.
>> That's the answer. And and and also it's
not a good answer.
>> No, of course it is.
>> It's a bad answer because you realize
that some people, you know, it's like
I'm lucky because I knew what I wanted
to do. But I know people whose lives
have been so unhappy because they didn't
know what they wanted to do.
>> You know, they haven't they didn't have
a vision of what their life could be.
And I and one cannot be judgmental on
that. One has to be understanding and
kind and realize what your life was
isn't what everybody's life is. You
>> we we're back to your dad a bit, I
think, because when people couldn't pay
their bills and your mom would think
that they were possibly taking
advantage, your dad would reach for an
explanation from their
>> he was
>> from their lives that that accounted for
why they were who they were. and and and
the the throwback that the comeback
rather to that was like recently well
last year I I was I written this book
and I was in Dundee promoting it and
there was a man who was in his 80s who
stood up at this in Braay Ferry and he
said your dad was so kind to me when I
was a kid
>> and he gave me so much care and
attention he said I'll never forget it
go
>> I'll carry it with me to my grave and
you go that was my dad.
>> That was what my dad gave another human
being, you know. I mean, a journalist in
Dy Loren Wilson, her her parents were
struggling. Young young couple
struggling. My dad helped them out. And
my dad would go and decorate somebody's
apartment, an old couple's apartment
after he finished work at 10:00 at
night. My drove my mother crazy. But
that's who he was, you know.
>> What would he have made of who you've
become?
>> Well, I think he'd be rather pleased.
>> I would hope so. I think you'd be rather
pleased because I don't think I've
forgotten who I am.
>> Well, you clearly haven't. You I mean,
the 8-year-old is in the room with us
now, isn't he? He's never left it. He's
never left.
>> We should talk a bit about this
astonishing current chapter in in in Did
you have an inkling when you first saw
Jesse's script that this was going to be
absolutely huge?
>> Well, you're very lucky if you can see
Jesse's script at all.
>> Is that how it works? You just get given
it last one of the best kept secrets
until you start to actually perform it.
I mean, they've been we've been having a
lot of problems with the scripts, I see,
because they get later and later and
that's the writer thing, you know. Don't
get me started on writers, you know, and
you know, they're great. They're
wonderful, but they're late. They get 9
months to make the program and finally
we're saying, "Oh, we've just finished
episode whatever it is now, and uh it's
coming to you. You start filming on
Monday and and and we're supposed to do
instant acting, you know?" I mean, and
the the lack of understanding of what we
do as actors just drives me nuts.
>> Well, you're just tools for for Exactly.
For the vision for the vision of the
writer tools for the vision, and that's
what we have to do. And uh
>> know your place.
>> You know your place. Exactly. It's it's
very uh you know, it's it's what's the
word? You know, everybody in their
place,
>> of course. And but did you know I mean
did you know early on that?
>> Well, I did you know when they did the
pitch to me? Uh I mean it was a pitch
actually. It was not a script,
>> right? Uh, and I I was here actually. I
was I was I have a I live in New York,
but I was have a place here. So, I was
in my flat here, and I got this phone
call. My manager said, "They're going to
call you. Uh, they're interested in you
for this this show that they want to
do." Uh, and Adam McKay, or we would say
Mai, but Adam McKay, I don't I've never
understood why they do that in America,
but they do. Adam McKay and Jesse
Armstrong, who's the show creator, is
gonna call you. Well, Jesse Armstrong
was in Italy. Adam McKay was in LA. So,
we had a three-way conversation
>> and they pitched the show to me and I
knew straight away I thought this is a
winner because also in in, you know, I
mean, Jesse would hate this probably,
but you know, and those shows have
always been very successful. If you
think of Dynasty, if you think of
Dallas, you think of all those shows
that have dealt with that, they've
always worked Falcon Crest, they've
always had a sort of value to them. So,
I knew that this show would work on one
level because of that dynamic
>> because of that dynamic, you know, and
it's a great dynamic. And of course, in
Jesse's hands, it's
>> it's phenomenal.
>> It's it's phenomenal because he is a
phenomenal writer and he's and he's
tough as old Get Out. I mean, he's a
tough guy. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he he he
doesn't appear to be, but he is
>> he gets what he wants.
>> He gets what he wants. He's a man who
gets what he wants, you know, and uh and
he does what he wants as well. So,
there's no getting around that. And
that's fine cuz that feeds you. And uh
and and Logan is a great role. And I I
think I've also brought something to it
in a way that was not necessarily
originally there that came more and more
as I became in involved with the role.
Uh, and uh, and that's why I have great
empathy for Logan. I don't see him as
the villain that everybody else sees him
as. Well, naturally, I wouldn't see him
as a villain because you don't judge a
character. It would be fatal to do that.
>> And and again, as as again as as has run
through this whole conversation, it's
very very much a community piece. It's
an ensemble piece.
>> That's right. And and that's that's the
great strength of our group. You know,
we have an amazing group and we have,
you know, actors like McFaden, Sarah,
Sarah Snook, Sarah Snook, uh, Jeremy,
Jeremy Strong, lovely Kieran. I mean,
they're all so extraordinary. Alan Rock,
you know, they all they're just a great
group to work with. And that's that's
the that'll be the saddest thing when
the show eventually comes to an end is
the people I've been working with. And
that's always the sad thing when
anything ends. It's the people you've
been working with. It's not so much the
venture, it's the actual the community
again that that you've been part of or
you've created.
>> You talk about having sympathy or
empathy for for for the character Logan
Roy. That's why some of the obvious
attempts to make it about the Murdoch or
about Rbert Murdoch, that's where they
fail, isn't it? Because
>> I Well, I'm I'm glad you said that.
I'm glad you said that, James, because I
think that's absolutely true. I I I I
think that the the point is they're not
the Murdoch. they are a little bit more
aware than the Murdoch and that's what
makes it a little bit that's what gives
it more edge
>> so that Logan knows that he's made
choices in his life in the same way that
John Codwell has made choices in his
life and and and you and you stand and
fall by those choices. It's not for one
to judge what those choices are. for one
to accept that these are his set of
circumstances and you have to
acknowledge those set of circumstances
and understand that that's part of the
human dilemma that we you know we
achieve harmony through considerable
cost but it's worth it and and I think
that that's what's so interesting about
Logan. I I have a great empathy for
Logan because I see Logan's journey as
one of deprivation.
>> Yeah. I don't see as I I I I think he is
deprived even though he seems to be the
richest man in the world, but he's a
very angry man
>> and he's very angry because there's
something that's missing at the
fundament of his life which is love and
care that he never had that he had
certainly had this mother but when he
went to you the idea was that he he was
a well initially the guy was born in
Quebec, Canada and then they changed it
and they had him born in Dundee which
they only changed on the ninth episode
of the first series when They came and
said, uh, you know, Peter Freriedman
said, "Oh, by the way, they've they've
changed your birthplace." And I went,
"What? They they've changed your
birthplace." I said, "You're no longer
born in Quebec." Now, I always thought
it was odd I was born in Quebec anyway
because uh I'm not sure if Jess is very
good at geography because originally he
said it's an American charact. He's
American. He's American. As far as I
know, Quebec is in Canada, so he would
be Canadian.
>> But that came to me late because I was
playing an American. And then I I was
then I discovered he was born in Quebec
and then he said, "Oh, you left Quebec
very early."
So he doesn't remember Quebec. He
doesn't remember. So I went, "Oh, that's
fine." But then when when when when they
suddenly on the ninth episode, you know,
Peter Freeman said, "They've changed
your birthplace." And I said, "So, uh,
what do you mean they changed my
birthplace?" He said, "You're no longer
born in Quebec." I said, "So where am I
born?" And he had to go to his div said,
"Oh, I can't remember." But he went to
his place and said, "Oh, yeah, here it
is. you you're yeah you're born in
somewhere called Dundee Scotland.
>> How funny.
>> And I said delightful. I said but that's
where I was born. And then he said oh
that's a coincidence.
I said that's a hell of a coincidence. I
said what is he talking about? I mean
you know he's born I'm not born in
Dundee. He and then I went to Jeremy
Jesse and I said and he said oh we
thought it'd be a little s this is
writer's fight. We thought it'd be a
little surprise, you know. So, I mean,
they do talk to you as if you're about
three years old and you've just got a
bunch of sweeties in your stocking or
something there. Give her a biscuit.
It'll be all right. Off you go. Off you
go.
>> Exactly. Go do your acting.
>> Just do go and do your acting. Exactly.
And I just thought, wait a minute, wait
a minute. And then he said and then he
said what he said about put. But he left
Andy very early, you know.
I see. But it it it's fascinating to
hear you describe that that that because
the character is searching for a hole to
fill a hole he doesn't even acknowledge
the existence of the hole. You couldn't
be more different. You you you you you
are
you're a very fulfilled man.
>> Yeah. Yeah. To a certain extent, you
know. I mean, I still have my
>> Of course you do.
>> I still have my uh
>> But there's not a gaping hunger inside
you.
>> No, no, no, no, not at all. I mean,
there was never there never was.
>> No, that's what I thought. You know,
there was never a gaping hunger. I I I
mean, I'm very blessed.
>> I really I mean, whatever that means,
but I I I've I've been very lucky even
though I had the most
>> really, if you look at it, terrible
childhood, you know,
>> but it I never felt that. I just felt
that this was part of the journey. And
then I had to just say, you know, I
didn't want, you know, there was no
choice. There was no point changing
carriages. The carriage was overcrowded
and that was the way it was.
>> You got to crack on. We come then to the
to the final questions. The two final
questions. You talk about the journey in
in professional terms. It's I I couldn't
even begin. We'd need another hour just
to list your CV and then I'd probably
have forgotten half of it. But do you
like me?
>> Yeah. Well, I was going to ask you that
actually. Were the subtitles you? Oh
yeah, I was in that.
>> Well, somebody said to me the other
night, they said, "Oh, you were in
perfect scoundrels and somebody was
saying
I'm about to direct my first movie." So,
I was meeting the guy who's going to
possibly be my I think he will be my
first assistant. And he said, "Oh, yeah.
We worked together before many many
years ago on a show called Perfect
Scoundrels. And I went I Perfect
Scoundrels. What? He said with Peter
Bose.
>> And I said, "Oh, Peter Bose." Well, I
knew Peter quite well. I said, "And then
I'm Oh, yeah. Perfect. I'd forgotten all
about that."
>> Fantastic. Do Do you have standout
moments? You must have asked answered
this question many times, but but
>> in career-wise. Yeah.
>> Oh, yeah. I mean I mean my you know
working with Lindsay was a big standout
moment for me and and and learning to be
>> you know he his great note to me was you
know after all we at the opening play we
had in celebration it's a son who comes
back for his and he's had a nervous
breakdown the son he's a and ironically
he's a careers officer at a school which
is one of the iron he's a nervous
breakdown so he comes back to the family
and he hasn't been there for some time
so he has to walk into the house and
remember this house that he hasn't
visited for probably a couple of years,
>> And Lindsay made me do it again and
again and again. And eventually Lindsay
said, "Oh, Brian, Brian, Brian, don't
just don't just do something. Stand
there." You know, and it was a great
note because it meant that I just didn't
have to work it. I just had to be it.
>> And that was a great moment for me in my
in my career. And then later on when I
discovered my other element to me which
is my Scottish side which is much more
to do with those extraordinary actors
like Duncan McCrae, Fulton Mai,
wonderful actor called Callum Mill who
were brilliant comedians. They were
brilliant comic actors but they always
had this sort of rigor about them as
actors and and physicality. They were
quite physical. So I I remember going to
India and doing the Scottish play and uh
I had this katak
girl who she was 16. She was a kid. She
was my dresser and she said um you know
uh I I she was very very praiseworthy.
But she she said you know Mr. Cut I
watch your work and I I feel that you
want to move more.
>> Oh wow.
>> And I went oh really and she said yeah.
I said oh okay. So she had me I had a
stand in the wings and watch me do the
scene. And eventually she had me
crawling all over the floor. And it was
such a I was my how old was I? I was I
was 30
>> gosh
>> 35 34 and I had a great it was a great
revelation
>> and then
uh seven or eight years later I wor with
Deborah Warner and this was a really
standout thing and I did Titus
Andronicus which is a plane nobody ever
touches because it's it's a horribly
good
>> it's it's an incredible play but people
don't go near it so I was uh I was given
the role
>> and we couldn't get a director for it.
We got people that wanted to do it, but
they wanted to do something else. And
then Deborah Warner came along and that
was a major thing in my theater career.
>> Um, we I could carry on this part of the
conversation forever, but let me and I
think you've alluded to what your next
answer might be with your next project,
but I what do you have any ambitions
left?
>> Yeah, well, I want to direct my first
movie.
>> It's exciting.
>> Which I'm I hope I can live. I live long
enough to do it.
No, it's I'm going to do that next year.
Um, and I'm in the process of we had the
green light from Lion's Gate and it's
kind of nerve-wracking because when
you're waiting for a movie to get made,
you're very excited.
>> Yeah. Well, and then it happens and you
go, "Now what?
>> Jump.
>> Now what?"
>> And it's it's it's the writer is a a goo
a guy I've worked with for many years
called David Ashton. And I did a series
on the radio because I the radio I it's
my favorite medium is the radio because
you don't have to wear makeup. You don't
have to learn your life. Tell me about
it. You don't have to do any of that. So
I I I I did this series called Mccleley
which was about a a Scottish detective
in Edinburgh which was a huge you know
we used to get million business
>> and I'd done that over a number of years
and he and I this producer actually put
it well he's known us both for years and
he said he commissioned this script and
it's our love letter to Scotland. So,
it's about a family-owned distillery in
Scotland and which is difficult because
so far I've approached some actors and
some of the actors I've approached, I
won't say no names, no pack are
alcoholics or recovering alcoholics.
>> So, so it's kind of weird that I it's a
bit I'd forgotten about.
>> You can't put temptation in there.
>> You can't you know they they wouldn't
necessarily want to be connected with
something that was about a distillery.
>> Thank you. We will we'll look out for
that. um the the the new TV show, How
the Other Half Live with with Brian Cox.
Do we know when it's out? Is it
>> tomorrow? Tomorrow night is and it will
be available then, of course.
>> It's on Paramount Plus
>> on the platforms. Brian Cox, thank you
so much.
>> Thank you. What a what a delight.